Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

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MACKA E30
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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by MACKA E30 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:56 am

=D> =D>

More Barry Budget

Less Colin Oskapee

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TwinTurbo
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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by TwinTurbo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:41 pm

FWIW I didn't say that there was "a level playing" field, they were the admiral's words that I was merely quoting.
Would having open tyres make the playing more or less level? A large % of racing categories around the world have control tyres, with the view that it goes some way to levelling up the playing field. The fact is motor racing will always be "unlevel", even in a one make series there are the haves and the have nots.

IP has never been a truly level playing field, it has always suited some cars more than others and some budgets more than others. But as someone who raced in CC and IP back in the open tyre days (and still manages Production Cars with open tyres) control tyres are by far the lessor of those two evils. For both budget and leveller playing field reasons.

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Gary

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:05 pm

I didn't say there was a "level playing field" either, I was merely quoting.
TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when your car can't use the "gun" tyre because it's not available in your size?
Heaps of cars can't use the "gun" tyre as it is, because the AO50 suits some cars more than others.

TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when the competitors with a "budget" can afford qualifying tyres, dry weather tyres, wet weather tyres or even tyres that work better at some tracks than others?
Don't tell me the competitors with a "bugdet" don't turn up to the nationals with 4 or 5 sets of A050s. Most sets brand spankers, buffed. Some new with full tread, in case it rains. Maybe even a few A048s (shock horror!) in case its hot.

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by TwinTurbo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:12 am

Admiral Ackbar wrote:I didn't say there was a "level playing field" either, I was merely quoting.
TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when your car can't use the "gun" tyre because it's not available in your size
Heaps of cars can't use the "gun" tyre as it is, because the AO50 suits some cars more than others.
I can’t say as I have found a car that I can’t get A050’s to work on. Not that I have tried every car, but FWD’s, RWD’s, AWD’s, IRS, LRA, dead axle, coil sprung, leaf sprung, even torsion bar sprung they all work pretty damn well.

But that’s not really the point, at least A050’s are available in a decent range of sizes, whereas many on the list are only available in a small number of sizes, some compounds only available in a handful of sizes. What happens to IP if the “gun” tyre isn’t available in say 15”? A couple of hundred IP cars miss out?

TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when the competitors with a "budget" can afford qualifying tyres, dry weather tyres, wet weather tyres or even tyres that work better at some tracks than others?
Don't tell me the competitors with a "bugdet" don't turn up to the nationals with 4 or 5 sets of A050s. Most sets brand spankers, buffed. Some new with full tread, in case it rains. Maybe even a few A048s (shock horror!) in case its hot.
I’ll be at the Nationals, I’ll let you know if I find anyone “with 4 or 5 sets of A050’s”. I can’t say as I have ever seen a buffed set of A050’s, so that would be a first. I know a couple of people tried it when they first came out, but it gave no measurable advantage, word quickly spread and I haven’t seen any since.

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Gary

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:35 pm

TwinTurbo wrote:
Admiral Ackbar wrote:I didn't say there was a "level playing field" either, I was merely quoting.
TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when your car can't use the "gun" tyre because it's not available in your size
Heaps of cars can't use the "gun" tyre as it is, because the AO50 suits some cars more than others.
I can’t say as I have found a car that I can’t get A050’s to work on. Not that I have tried every car, but FWD’s, RWD’s, AWD’s, IRS, LRA, dead axle, coil sprung, leaf sprung, even torsion bar sprung they all work pretty damn well.

Compared to what? Is your brain so stuck on the one tyre thing? And Yokohama (all bow down) have never suggested heavy cars use the A048 since the A050s came out!

But that’s not really the point, at least A050’s are available in a decent range of sizes, whereas many on the list are only available in a small number of sizes, some compounds only available in a handful of sizes. What happens to IP if the “gun” tyre isn’t available in say 15”? A couple of hundred IP cars miss out?

What if the medium compound A050 doesn't suit light cars, as much as it suits heavier cars? That is exactly the current situation. Of course we should all be driving heavy late model cars, from which it is impossible to remove weight from. Oops accidentally played the broken record again.
TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when the competitors with a "budget" can afford qualifying tyres, dry weather tyres, wet weather tyres or even tyres that work better at some tracks than others?
Don't tell me the competitors with a "bugdet" don't turn up to the nationals with 4 or 5 sets of A050s. Most sets brand spankers, buffed. Some new with full tread, in case it rains. Maybe even a few A048s (shock horror!) in case its hot.
I’ll be at the Nationals, I’ll let you know if I find anyone “with 4 or 5 sets of A050’s”. I can’t say as I have ever seen a buffed set of A050’s, so that would be a first. I know a couple of people tried it when they first came out, but it gave no measurable advantage, word quickly spread and I haven’t seen any since.

Maybe you should open your eyes more, or have your selective blindness seen to.

Cheers
Gary

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by TwinTurbo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 pm

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
TwinTurbo wrote:
Admiral Ackbar wrote:I didn't say there was a "level playing field" either, I was merely quoting.
TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when your car can't use the "gun" tyre because it's not available in your size
Heaps of cars can't use the "gun" tyre as it is, because the AO50 suits some cars more than others.
I can’t say as I have found a car that I can’t get A050’s to work on. Not that I have tried every car, but FWD’s, RWD’s, AWD’s, IRS, LRA, dead axle, coil sprung, leaf sprung, even torsion bar sprung they all work pretty damn well.
Compared to what? Is your brain so stuck on the one tyre thing? And Yokohama (all bow down) have never suggested heavy cars use the A048 since the A050s came out!
Stuck, I'm not stuck on Yokohama, I use Hankooks and Dunlops on the Production Cars, Hoosiers and Kumho's on numerous cars and the time attach Evo uses Federals. Far more cars not on Yokohamas than on Yokohamas.
But that’s not really the point, at least A050’s are available in a decent range of sizes, whereas many on the list are only available in a small number of sizes, some compounds only available in a handful of sizes. What happens to IP if the “gun” tyre isn’t available in say 15”? A couple of hundred IP cars miss out?
What if the medium compound A050 doesn't suit light cars, as much as it suits heavier cars? That is exactly the current situation. Of course we should all be driving heavy late model cars, from which it is impossible to remove weight from. Oops accidentally played the broken record again.
It seems to suit "light cars" pretty damn well, although I guess it depends on one's definition of "light". Is Chris Brown's Sprinter "light", Justin Keys' or Dave Waldon's 808's, Scot Hunter's Corolla, Simon Philips Datto 1200, etc all lap record holders.
TwinTurbo wrote:What happens to the level playing field when the competitors with a "budget" can afford qualifying tyres, dry weather tyres, wet weather tyres or even tyres that work better at some tracks than others?
Don't tell me the competitors with a "bugdet" don't turn up to the nationals with 4 or 5 sets of A050s. Most sets brand spankers, buffed. Some new with full tread, in case it rains. Maybe even a few A048s (shock horror!) in case its hot.
I’ll be at the Nationals, I’ll let you know if I find anyone “with 4 or 5 sets of A050’s”. I can’t say as I have ever seen a buffed set of A050’s, so that would be a first. I know a couple of people tried it when they first came out, but it gave no measurable advantage, word quickly spread and I haven’t seen any since.
Maybe you should open your eyes more, or have your selective blindness seen to.
I'll make sure I pay extra special attention at the Nationals and report back

Cheers
Gary

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Born Again Racer » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:58 pm

Dave's car is an RX3

Justin's 808 is no longer his

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by TwinTurbo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:05 pm

Born Again Racer wrote:Dave's car is an RX3
Justin's 808 is no longer his
But are they "light" :wink:

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Sprintparts » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:16 pm

I am all for reducing/keeping cost under control but I am a believer in a control tyre for IPRA.

To the best of my knowledge nearly every category running at the NSW CAMS State Championship uses a control tyre, the only ones that I can think that don't are Sport Sedans and Prod Sports. I am happy to be proven wrong. I am sure that each category has their reason to run a control tyre, I don't know what they as you would need to ask each category, but for me I think that it must work for them as it does for IP.

My personal reason/options are as follows.

Every one has the same tyre and therefore no advantage or disadvantage to anyone. I am sure that there is some will ague this but this is fact. If your car does not like the control tyre maybe you should be looking at your setup.

The current tyre has very little performance change from new to old, so there is no major advantage in throwing new tyres "willy nilly" at your car, use them until they are worn out.

The current supplier provides technical support and financial support to IPRAUS for the Nationals and each state gets a rebate for tyre bought from their local supplier.

I don't have to go looking for tyres and work out which "might" suit my car. I ring Gordon Leven Motorsport here in NSW, who always has tyres in stock and they delivery them to the track ready for fitting on the race weekend. This saves time and money sourcing and buying tyres away from the track. This also means that I carry less wheels and tyres to an event, saving space and effort. If I think that I MIGHT need tyres, or it could be wet and might to need to have some "fresh rubber", Leven's will always put tyres on the truck for me and if I don't need them, take them back to the factory and and it does not cost me money having tyres sitting around on a "maybe".

I have run every NSW State round for MANY years and on average I use 6-8 tyres a year, yes it is a U/2L which is why I chose it for cheaper running costs.

If IP went away from a control tyre, I am sure the vast majority or regular competitors would continue to us the current tyre or another of similar performance and cost.

If I went to a cheaper non control tyre and maybe saved $100 a tyres what would it really cost me?

There would be no trackside support so now I need to carry more wheels and tyres to each meeting, which takes up a lot of room. I have more money tied up with spare wheels and tyres and I would have to pay for trackside tyre servicing.

Will the cheaper tyre last as long and will it continue to perform until it is worn out? If I now need to use 12 tyres a year cost is the same plus I now don't have all the other advantages of the control tyre.

If I wish to try and stay competitive with the front runners, I will need to have their "gun tyres".

For me a control tyres works and makes life a little bit easier. I have been doing this for a long time, so I know about costs, but this is motor racing no one said it was cheap, and if you think that you can't afford to do it, then don't.

Mark

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Steve thomas » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:04 pm

TwinTurbo wrote:
Admiral Ackbar wrote:I didn't say there was a "level playing field" either, I was merely quoting.
TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when your car can't use the "gun" tyre because it's not available in your size
Heaps of cars can't use the "gun" tyre as it is, because the AO50 suits some cars more than others.
I can’t say as I have found a car that I can’t get A050’s to work on. Not that I have tried every car, but FWD’s, RWD’s, AWD’s, IRS, LRA, dead axle, coil sprung, leaf sprung, even torsion bar sprung they all work pretty damn well.

But that’s not really the point, at least A050’s are available in a decent range of sizes, whereas many on the list are only available in a small number of sizes, some compounds only available in a handful of sizes. What happens to IP if the “gun” tyre isn’t available in say 15”? A couple of hundred IP cars miss out?

TwinTurbo wrote: What happens to the level playing field when the competitors with a "budget" can afford qualifying tyres, dry weather tyres, wet weather tyres or even tyres that work better at some tracks than others?
Don't tell me the competitors with a "bugdet" don't turn up to the nationals with 4 or 5 sets of A050s. Most sets brand spankers, buffed. Some new with full tread, in case it rains. Maybe even a few A048s (shock horror!) in case its hot.
I’ll be at the Nationals, I’ll let you know if I find anyone “with 4 or 5 sets of A050’s”. I can’t say as I have ever seen a buffed set of A050’s, so that would be a first. I know a couple of people tried it when they first came out, but it gave no measurable advantage, word quickly spread and I haven’t seen any since.

Cheers
Gary
I know at least one that runs multi sets of Buffed tyres. One or the top cars in the country.
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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Steve thomas » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:08 pm

What some are trying to say is the 050 suits 050s very well, What they don't like is they also suit heavy LM cars taking the tyre advantage away.
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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Electro » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:47 am

Never thought I would see the day when Island Magic would have so few IP entries.

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by TwinTurbo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:53 am

Electro wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:47 am
Never thought I would see the day when Island Magic would have so few IP entries.
I think the Nationals attracted a lot of entries that in past years would have gone to Island Magic. Which personally I believe is a good thing for IP.

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:24 pm

TwinTurbo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 pm

I'll make sure I pay extra special attention at the Nationals and report back

Cheers
Gary
I am eagerly awaiting your report.

Any buffed tyres?

Did anyone have de-lamination problems on heavier cars?

Any A048s used?

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Re: Production Cars and IP in the CAMS Scheme

Post by TwinTurbo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:16 pm

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:24 pm
TwinTurbo wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 pm
I'll make sure I pay extra special attention at the Nationals and report back
I am eagerly awaiting your report.
Any buffed tyres?
Did anyone have de-lamination problems on heavier cars?
Any A048s used?
Sorry, I completely forgot;
I saw a set of buffed tyres, for a car that I never even imagined would need them :?
However the cars that I thought might possibly be running them weren't.
De-lamination no, but I saw one tyre that failed at the hinge point due to under inflation.
I didn't see any A048's.

Cheers
Gary

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