What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

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What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Tue May 14, 2019 1:33 am

I just had a look at the results from the state rounds this year for U1600;
Rnd 1 2
*******************
NSW 2
QLD ? (no capacities on Mylaps, no results on IPRA QLD website)
VIC 0 2
SA 0
TAS 0 0
WA 2
NT 0
********************
2018 Nationals 4

Also the overall competitor numbers this year have been very low...

I understand U1600 has always never been real popular, but has it always been this bad?
Is there any chance the administrator will remove it from the national championship due to insufficient entries?
If that were to happen I think it would be a great shame, as U1600 would have to be the cheapest to run and there are plenty of eligible cars all the way from the 70s to the present day.

Why don't more Excel drivers race with IPRA?

Why don't more U2000 competitors stick with the 1600 engine some their cars originally came with?
Last edited by Admiral Ackbar on Tue May 14, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TwinTurbo » Tue May 14, 2019 7:52 am

Building a decent 1600 cc race engine costs a lot more than buying a used 2000 cc engine. There’s ~25% more torque and depending on the engine choice much the same BHP or even more. For example a Toyota Beams stock will make more power than a hot 4AGE. Then there are plenty of easy bolt ons to make it even more so. Plus it won’t need close ratio gears with its huge torque spread, but a hot 1600 almost always has a narrow power band and needs big rpm and frequent servicing.

The draw to 2 litre is it’s easy, cheaper to build and cheaper to run.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Sprintparts » Tue May 14, 2019 9:08 am

Good point, where have all the U1600 cars?

There was 2 at NSW Round 1,#127 Toyota Corolla and #19 Mitsubishi Mirage Cyborg.

I am sure for a lot of people running U1600 cars in a field with cars up to 6.2 litres is not the most ideal situation. I have been there and done it and it can be very frustrating as for a U1600 car it is ALL about corner speed. The Mirage tops out at about 180-185 KPH at SMSP, which leaves you a long way behind down the straight.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Tue May 14, 2019 11:27 am

TwinTurbo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:52 am
Building a decent 1600 cc race engine costs a lot more than buying a used 2000 cc engine. There’s ~25% more torque and depending on the engine choice much the same BHP or even more. For example a Toyota Beams stock will make more power than a hot 4AGE. Then there are plenty of easy bolt ons to make it even more so. Plus it won’t need close ratio gears with its huge torque spread, but a hot 1600 almost always has a narrow power band and needs big rpm and frequent servicing.

The draw to 2 litre is it’s easy, cheaper to build and cheaper to run.

Cheers
Gary
A 4AGE doesn't have to compete against a BEAMS as they are in different classes.The aftermarket for 4AGE engines is huge and they are relatively cheap to build. A built 4AGE will probably cost the same as a mildly worked beams, and will give good performance relative to the other cars racing in U1600, whereas your BEAMS will be middle of the U2000 pack at best.To be really competitive in any class you always need a good gearbox, which is always expensive.

Anyway, it's a bit academic when there are so few runners. Someone should tell a few of the Excel guys they could be state IPRA champion if they just turn up to every race meeting (if said state gives out a trophy for U1600).

For the guys who just want to get on track and have a go, without the door banging of a one make series, what's wrong with U1600?

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Sprintparts » Tue May 14, 2019 11:48 am

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:27 am

Anyway, it's a bit academic when there are so few runners. Someone should tell a few of the Excel guys they could be state IPRA champion if they just turn up to every race meeting (if said state gives out a trophy for U1600).
NSW does, I have a couple of them including a National's U 1600 win. :D :D :D

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Tue May 14, 2019 11:55 am

Sorry I missed the two NSW U1600 racers.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TwinTurbo » Tue May 14, 2019 10:37 pm

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:27 am
TwinTurbo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:52 am
Building a decent 1600 cc race engine costs a lot more than buying a used 2000 cc engine. There’s ~25% more torque and depending on the engine choice much the same BHP or even more. For example a Toyota Beams stock will make more power than a hot 4AGE. Then there are plenty of easy bolt ons to make it even more so. Plus it won’t need close ratio gears with its huge torque spread, but a hot 1600 almost always has a narrow power band and needs big rpm and frequent servicing.

The draw to 2 litre is it’s easy, cheaper to build and cheaper to run.
A 4AGE doesn't have to compete against a BEAMS as they are in different classes.The aftermarket for 4AGE engines is huge and they are relatively cheap to build. A built 4AGE will probably cost the same as a mildly worked beams, and will give good performance relative to the other cars racing in U1600, whereas your BEAMS will be middle of the U2000 pack at best.To be really competitive in any class you always need a good gearbox, which is always expensive.

Anyway, it's a bit academic when there are so few runners. Someone should tell a few of the Excel guys they could be state IPRA champion if they just turn up to every race meeting (if said state gives out a trophy for U1600).

For the guys who just want to get on track and have a go, without the door banging of a one make series, what's wrong with U1600?
They do compete, they are on the track at the same time. No one watching knows what sized engine is in the Corolla (unless they take the time and make the effort to find a program).

No need to “work” a Beams, standard they will make more BHP than a very hot 4AGE and will make a lot more torque everywhere than a 4AGE ever will. With the standard Altezza 6 speed behind it, any early model RWD Corolla gets very mobile. No need for dog boxes, close ratio gears or short diff ratios.

The proof is in the numbers, there aren’t many U1600’s because they simply aren’t good value for money. The same applies to Honda’s, Escorts, etc.

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Gary

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Wed May 15, 2019 12:24 pm

That's why there are commentators and race programmes - to inform the two spectators that IPRA has about the cars, drivers and classes.

You can get 240hp out of a BEAMS with a standard intake can you? And your mythical jap import engine is in excellent condition and will never need new rings? (at which point you'd be stupid not to do pistons, rods and headwork). What is the weight difference between a BEAMS and a 4AGE? A lot! The BEAMS is a lot longer too.

What sort of engines have 2 litre Escort racers used? Pinto (ok for grid fillers), Mazda/Ford FE DOHC (old, hard to find, no aftermarket), Cosworth YB ($$$ lol), Duratec (piss weak bottom end standard, not really good until you spend $$$).

Which engine would I use in a U1600 Escort? Budget option would be a Mazda/Ford B6, bolts up to MX-5 5 or 6 speed gearbox, massive aftermarket because it was used in early MX-5 and also a lot of 1.8 BP parts fit. The Laser/323 DOHC head is a bit meh, but of course you could put an MX5 head on it, or you could get a Mazda ZM (Mazda 2) head from the wreckers for about $200 which flows very well.

If a prospective racer comes to you with an EF or EK Civic, do you tell them they need to stroke it or swap to be competitive in U2000, and advise against racing it with a B16 in U1600?

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TwinTurbo » Wed May 15, 2019 3:40 pm

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:24 pm
That's why there are commentators and race programmes - to inform the two spectators that IPRA has about the cars, drivers and classes.

You can get 240hp out of a BEAMS with a standard intake can you? And your mythical jap import engine is in excellent condition and will never need new rings? (at which point you'd be stupid not to do pistons, rods and headwork). What is the weight difference between a BEAMS and a 4AGE? A lot! The BEAMS is a lot longer too.

What sort of engines have 2 litre Escort racers used? Pinto (ok for grid fillers), Mazda/Ford FE DOHC (old, hard to find, no aftermarket), Cosworth YB ($$$ lol), Duratec (piss weak bottom end standard, not really good until you spend $$$).

Which engine would I use in a U1600 Escort? Budget option would be a Mazda/Ford B6, bolts up to MX-5 5 or 6 speed gearbox, massive aftermarket because it was used in early MX-5 and also a lot of 1.8 BP parts fit. The Laser/323 DOHC head is a bit meh, but of course you could put an MX5 head on it, or you could get a Mazda ZM (Mazda 2) head from the wreckers for about $200 which flows very well.

If a prospective racer comes to you with an EF or EK Civic, do you tell them they need to stroke it or swap to be competitive in U2000, and advise against racing it with a B16 in U1600?
We can debate all we like (eg; how are you going to get 220+ nm of torque out a 4AGE?) but the facts are there for all to see, competitors are voting with their wallets. Until we start running separate races for U1600 they will stay right where they are. Mostly a drop in / fill in for Excels, production cars and others, with the odd IP Mirage for variety.


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Gary

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Wed May 15, 2019 4:11 pm

Ok, so don't bother trying to attract new racers (or keep old ones racing rather than walking away from the sport) to U1600 as a cheaper entry point to the category. I guess that's why the grids(overall numbers) have been so strong this year.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TwinTurbo » Wed May 15, 2019 6:25 pm

That’s a change of direction, you asked “What’s Happening” and I gave my opinion on that question. Nothing whatsoever to do with attracting new racers. I’m totally confident that anyone and everyone wanting to run an U1600 car will get the same welcome as anyone else wanting to run in IP, full and hearty.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by zossy1 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:44 pm

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:11 pm
Ok, so don't bother trying to attract new racers (or keep old ones racing rather than walking away from the sport) to U1600 as a cheaper entry point to the category. I guess that's why the grids(overall numbers) have been so strong this year.
Normally I don’t buy into these sorts of things, but I tend to agree with Gary. How is U1600 a cheaper entry point, unless you just happen to already have a competitive U1600 car? I think that myth is fairly easy to debunk, at least as compared to U2L.

The problem you have with U1600 is this. “Come and race a slower car against faster cars, in a standalone class that might have 1-2 other competitors, at the same or similar cost as running a faster model”. It’s the same problem the under-1000cc historic class has. Race your under-1000 mini vs. one or two others? Or race a 1300cc Cooper S against 10-15 others, with an outright chance of a win at tracks like WP? Surely the only real case for running the lower capacity class is to hunt for a trophy.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Electro » Thu May 16, 2019 6:02 pm

Nobody should ridicule what another man wants to race. If it is their passion, who are we to judge. After all, if it means more cars on the track, and more variety - then all the better. It's not all about winning.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by sengel » Thu May 16, 2019 6:26 pm

Electro wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:02 pm
Nobody should ridicule what another man wants to race. If it is their passion, who are we to judge. After all, if it means more cars on the track, and more variety - then all the better. It's not all about winning.
Hear hear

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Thu May 16, 2019 9:08 pm

zossy1 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:44 pm
Normally I don’t buy into these sorts of things, but I tend to agree with Gary. How is U1600 a cheaper entry point, unless you just happen to already have a competitive U1600 car? I think that myth is fairly easy to debunk, at least as compared to U2L.

The problem you have with U1600 is this. “Come and race a slower car against faster cars, in a standalone class that might have 1-2 other competitors, at the same or similar cost as running a faster model”. It’s the same problem the under-1000cc historic class has. Race your under-1000 mini vs. one or two others? Or race a 1300cc Cooper S against 10-15 others, with an outright chance of a win at tracks like WP? Surely the only real case for running the lower capacity class is to hunt for a trophy.
So the way it is, is the way it always has to be? (with regards to competitor numbers)

Why does the U1600 class even exist in the first place? Way back when (street sedans) somebody must have thought it would be good to provide a class for 1600 Escorts, Datsuns, Celicas, Galants and Geminis. There are still a few of those around as well as heaps of newer Corollas, Civics, Hyundais, Fiestas etc..

What's one of the most iconic 1600s of all time? The B16 Civic. How many 1600 Civics raced at the nationals last year? Zero. Somebody must have been telling people there is no point racing a 1600 Civic. Tell me how stroking a B16 or a K swap or a B18C swap is cheaper than building what you already have.

A lot of IPRA racers have delusions of being Craig Lowndes. If a car does not have the potential to one day win outright or U2L, they think there is no point racing it.

I have a JDM AE86 road car in the shed. I can't afford a Group A log book. I don't want to do an engine swap. I guess I'll leave it in the shed, otherwise people will think I am just hunting for a trophy.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu May 16, 2019 11:29 pm

The Australian delivered B16A EK Civic is a VTiR (has VTEC), the EG and EF Civics are D16A's (no VTEC), trying to find an EK VTiR isn't easy or cheap these days. They also came standard with a glass sunroof which has to be removed. As a result most buy a lower spec model and then do the engine and gearbox swap, it costs no more to do a B18 than it does to do a B16 swap. The 5 speed gearbox is the same, so that's irrelevant, although they are getting harder to source parts for. A used B20 (non VTEC) is a quarter the price of the VTEC B16 or B18, then you bolt on a VTEC cylinder head and you have the extra capacity and torque for less cost. A no brainer really. JDM EK Type R's and EG SIR's bring silly money these days, and as a result are not economical. KSwaps are very popular as a K20 or K24 costs less than a B16 or B18 (VTEC) and there are inexpensive engine and gearbox mount kits that simply bolt in. As a bonus you get a 6 speed gearbox with readily available, off the shelf gears, diffs and LSD's.

It is easy to forget that the B16A is a 35 year old engine, hence it gets harder to find a decent one every year and there are simply better and cheaper alternatives. If you had an EK VTiR then there is nothing wrong with racing it and of course it would be welcomed, but buying a lessor model and then building one up doesn't make sense, either economically or speed wise.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Thu May 16, 2019 11:53 pm

Race/rally import.

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by 3sgem » Fri May 17, 2019 6:59 am

TwinTurbo wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:29 pm

It is easy to forget that the B16A is a 35 year old engine, hence it gets harder to find a decent one every year and there are simply better and cheaper alternatives.

Cheers
Gary
Hmm, I thought that the EG6 JDM SiR, SiR-II, and SiR-S had the B16A engine. So this variant allowed the Cox's (due to original block/head) to stroke the B16a to 1950cc or so and therefore keep it below class weight.

I agree that the K20 is a superb engine for an early model Honda chassis. But has the K series Honda beat a B series Honda in IP races yet??????
Paul,

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TwinTurbo » Fri May 17, 2019 7:50 am

3sgem wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:59 am
TwinTurbo wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:29 pm
It is easy to forget that the B16A is a 35 year old engine, hence it gets harder to find a decent one every year and there are simply better and cheaper alternatives.
Hmm, I thought that the EG6 JDM SiR, SiR-II, and SiR-S had the B16A engine. So this variant allowed the Cox's (due to original block/head) to stroke the B16a to 1950cc or so and therefore keep it below class weight.

I agree that the K20 is a superb engine for an early model Honda chassis. But has the K series Honda beat a B series Honda in IP races yet??????
Not sold here, but Group A homologated so eligible for IP. If I remember rightly that one was originally a Breeze, they came with a D13. Getting an SiR from Japan these days is not easy, or cheap, most (not all) IP Honda’s are local deliveries with engine swaps. Which was my point, when doing an engine swap most choose the larger capacity engine.

K20 Honda’s have won U2L State Championships & Nationals, so the answer is yes, many times.

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Gary

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Re: What's Hapenning with the U1600 Class?

Post by TRAV-KE55 » Sat May 25, 2019 12:27 am

I've just done my first ever ipra meeting recently at Phillip Island, and in a under 1600cc corolla with a 4age. I had an absolute ball, and to race with cars with larger capacity than mine, used about 40lts fuel and my 5 year old ao50s do fine as the car is just so easy on tyres. Racing can't get much cheaper. For me at the moment it's about getting out there amongst it, having fun at a price point that I can afford. Yes there are much faster cars on the grid, but unless I have deep pockets and more talent I'm never going to be at that end of the grid. Yes sandown will be a laugh as I try to stay in front of the fire Marshall at the start, but winton hopefully I get further up the field. To me each to their own but I do feel there should be far more under 1600cc cars there running and having fun.

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