Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

A place to chat about the state of the IPRA nation, ask (non-technical) questions about IPRA, etc.
Public Read and Write

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
datman55
old timer
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:25 pm
Location:
Location: Perth
Contact:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by datman55 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:17 pm

FatBoy wrote: BTW - How does a thinner brake rotor help performance ? I'm genuinely interested...
I will say Paul, one of the attractions of the brake set-up I have pulled together for my car was a lighter rotor (it's 2mm thinner than the comparable evo rotor that most people run in my type of car) Weight removal is seriously under rated i believe by most people (particularly unsprung weight), and by that I mean I look at every 100grams of weight. I know how to build a restricted SR20, and I still have lots to learn in suspension set-up on this new toy, but I have been pedantic about every aspect of weight during the build. Another reason for the current design was to fit the new brakes under the lightweight rims we want to run (nearly 1kg lighter than most). For example the new brake set-up using 326mm rotor (compared to 280mm strock) and the Brembo's is not only bigger but 700g lighter than the factory set-up, plus the saving of nearly 1kg per rim (all unsprung weight). I could have used a ready made adaptor for a few hundred dollars and the heavier rims, instead I have invested heaps of time (research and test fitting etc) and money in having this new set-up made for me.

I will say, I think the pulsar series looks like a shed load of fun, and I hope it stays that way, as that is why most of us do this (not the $10 plastic trophy). I am a Nissan guy after all 8)

P.S. My wife thinks I've gone made because I keep taking the bathroom scales out to the garage to weigh car parts (even the crap I am throwing in the bin :shock: )..... ](*,) ](*,)
P.S.S. The driver has also lost 4kg's since New Year - only 6kg to go to hit my target!!! :D :D :D
Looking forward to getting back amongst the action!
S15 Build ----> www.facebook.com/fullthrottlemotorsport

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4622
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Steve thomas » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:23 pm

People also don't know how much effect the "Gyro effect" has on a large heavy spinning wheel and rotor has.
Back to the Past for the Future.

User avatar
FatBoy
I spend too much time in front of a keyboard
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17 pm
Location:
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by FatBoy » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:42 pm

Good posts Mark and Steve, cheers... =D>

I guess with an 1100 kg minimum weight being a key consideration (and it's easy to get under it, even with me at 112kgs my car was 1106 with about a third of a tank of fuel) i wasn't too concerned with looking at other options to reduce weight - apart from the driver... :badgrin:


And Gary - please keep talking it up. I'm sending off the paperwork for my CAMS logbook tomorrow, if you keep it up my car will be worth another 5k by the time it arrives in the mail.... :mrgreen:

User avatar
TwinTurbo
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 10481
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:46 am
Location: Sydney
Location: Sydney, IPRANSW

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:29 am

FatBoy wrote:Good posts Mark and Steve, cheers... =D>
I guess with an 1100 kg minimum weight being a key consideration (and it's easy to get under it, even with me at 112kgs my car was 1106 with about a third of a tank of fuel) i wasn't too concerned with looking at other options to reduce weight - apart from the driver... :badgrin:
And Gary - please keep talking it up. I'm sending off the paperwork for my CAMS logbook tomorrow, if you keep it up my car will be worth another 5k by the time it arrives in the mail.... :mrgreen:
There's a big difference in the effects of the total weight, the weight of the unsprung components and the weight of the rotating components. Personally I'd be reducing the weight of the rotating items first, that's effectively free horsepower for faster acceleration. Then the unsprung weight, for better handling, especially with control dampers and springs. I would also be looking to reduce weight at the extremities to lessen the POI. Similarly reducing weight above the COG to lower it and weight at front (they are front heavy). I'd then use any ballast, required to meet the minimum weight, to offset the drivers weight in balancing. Plus I sure as hell wouldn't be racing with an excess of ~15 litres of fuel sloshing around. :roll:

There's quite a bit of work required in achieving the optimum weight distribution and this involves increased servicing costs in time, money and effort. Such is the price for winning, or maybe just going faster.

Cheers
Gary

User avatar
FatBoy
I spend too much time in front of a keyboard
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17 pm
Location:
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by FatBoy » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:42 pm

TwinTurbo wrote:There's a big difference in the effects of the total weight, the weight of the unsprung components and the weight of the rotating components. Personally I'd be reducing the weight of the rotating items first, that's effectively free horsepower for faster acceleration. Then the unsprung weight, for better handling, especially with control dampers and springs. I would also be looking to reduce weight at the extremities to lessen the POI. Similarly reducing weight above the COG to lower it and weight at front (they are front heavy). I'd then use any ballast, required to meet the minimum weight, to offset the drivers weight in balancing. Plus I sure as hell wouldn't be racing with an excess of ~15 litres of fuel sloshing around. :roll:

There's quite a bit of work required in achieving the optimum weight distribution and this involves increased servicing costs in time, money and effort. Such is the price for winning, or maybe just going faster.
Yeah, you could do all that i guess. And still get spanked by a young gun like Dan Smith / Dimitri Agathos / Jaie Robson because they have far more talent than i ever will. If i was battling it out with the Top 3 or 4 i might consider pushing the envelope but right now myself (and the rest of the field it seems) are quite content to build sub 10k cars and just get out there and have fun - which was the intent of the series from day dot. Hopefully it stays like that...


Just looking back at something from a page or two back - i had been meaning to check it as your estimated seemed absurdly low...
TwinTurbo wrote:So better brakes would help then, or more accurately shorter stopping distances. It's not the maximum speed itself that matters, it's the difference between the maximum speed and the corner speed. Simple example, RX7 has maximum speed of 190 kph (at Wakefield let's say) with a turn 2 speed of 90 kph (let's say), that's 100 kph to be washed off. If the Puslar (that weighs the same) has a maximum speed of (let's say) 160 kph and a corner speed of 60 kph then that's 100 kph to be washed off. Not a lot of difference in braking performance. Yes, I know the tyres are different.
Except the Pulsars are very close - (some just over, some just under) your estimated max speed, but a corner speed of 90km/h through 1 as verified by data i just looked at. So significantly different...

Whilst i have no doubt the brake package could easily be upgraded to make them even better under brakes my assertion that the package currently run is fine for what they are... :wink:

User avatar
TwinTurbo
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 10481
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:46 am
Location: Sydney
Location: Sydney, IPRANSW

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by TwinTurbo » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:17 am

FatBoy wrote:
TwinTurbo wrote:There's a big difference in the effects of the total weight, the weight of the unsprung components and the weight of the rotating components. Personally I'd be reducing the weight of the rotating items first, that's effectively free horsepower for faster acceleration. Then the unsprung weight, for better handling, especially with control dampers and springs. I would also be looking to reduce weight at the extremities to lessen the POI. Similarly reducing weight above the COG to lower it and weight at front (they are front heavy). I'd then use any ballast, required to meet the minimum weight, to offset the drivers weight in balancing. Plus I sure as hell wouldn't be racing with an excess of ~15 litres of fuel sloshing around. :roll:

There's quite a bit of work required in achieving the optimum weight distribution and this involves increased servicing costs in time, money and effort. Such is the price for winning, or maybe just going faster.
Yeah, you could do all that i guess. And still get spanked by a young gun like Dan Smith / Dimitri Agathos / Jaie Robson because they have far more talent than i ever will. If i was battling it out with the Top 3 or 4 i might consider pushing the envelope but right now myself (and the rest of the field it seems) are quite content to build sub 10k cars and just get out there and have fun - which was the intent of the series from day dot. Hopefully it stays like that.
Unfortunately raising the profile goes against that hope.

In my case, because I was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best, I always had to "engineer" my car to be a second or so faster than the competition. As a result I could in general keep up with the faster drivers as long as I worked hard enough to maintain the engineering advantage. It would have been embarrassing if the car was a second or so off the pace engineering wise and then handicapped further by my driving level. When I had a "faster" driver in a car that I worked on I couldn't have slept at night knowing that the car wasn't as fast or faster than the opposition. I really hate letting my teammates down. The driver and the other people who put their heart and sole (and often money) into it, it grates on me if the car isn't the best that it can be. I guess it's a DNA thing, I just don't go motor racing to lose, I don't have to win, but I do have to feel like we have a chance. That doesn't mean rolling the "perfect" car off the trailer the first time and every time, I'm OK with a work in progress, ongoing development. What I am not OK with is a "she'll be right" approach although I do understand that there are plenty of people who just love to compete.

Frankly Paul there simply isn't enough "fun" there for me in just competing, in order for me to put in a full effort I need more "fun" than that. :wink:

Just looking back at something from a page or two back - i had been meaning to check it as your estimated seemed absurdly low...
TwinTurbo wrote:So better brakes would help then, or more accurately shorter stopping distances. It's not the maximum speed itself that matters, it's the difference between the maximum speed and the corner speed. Simple example, RX7 has maximum speed of 190 kph (at Wakefield let's say) with a turn 2 speed of 90 kph (let's say), that's 100 kph to be washed off. If the Puslar (that weighs the same) has a maximum speed of (let's say) 160 kph and a corner speed of 60 kph then that's 100 kph to be washed off. Not a lot of difference in braking performance. Yes, I know the tyres are different.
Except the Pulsars are very close - (some just over, some just under) your estimated max speed, but a corner speed of 90km/h through 1 as verified by data i just looked at. So significantly different...
Whilst i have no doubt the brake package could easily be upgraded to make them even better under brakes my assertion that the package currently run is fine for what they are... :wink:
It was just an example Paul, it wasn't as you call it an "estimate", hence why I used the terminology "let's say".
For completeness it was Turn 2, not Turn 1.


Cheers
Gary

User avatar
FatBoy
I spend too much time in front of a keyboard
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17 pm
Location:
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by FatBoy » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:16 am

TwinTurbo wrote:In my case, because I was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best, I always had to "engineer" my car to be a second or so faster than the competition. As a result I could in general keep up with the faster drivers as long as I worked hard enough to maintain the engineering advantage. It would have been embarrassing if the car was a second or so off the pace engineering wise and then handicapped further by my driving level. When I had a "faster" driver in a car that I worked on I couldn't have slept at night knowing that the car wasn't as fast or faster than the opposition. I really hate letting my teammates down. The driver and the other people who put their heart and sole (and often money) into it, it grates on me if the car isn't the best that it can be. I guess it's a DNA thing, I just don't go motor racing to lose, I don't have to win, but I do have to feel like we have a chance. That doesn't mean rolling the "perfect" car off the trailer the first time and every time, I'm OK with a work in progress, ongoing development. What I am not OK with is a "she'll be right" approach although I do understand that there are plenty of people who just love to compete.

Frankly Paul there simply isn't enough "fun" there for me in just competing, in order for me to put in a full effort I need more "fun" than that. :wink:
Totally understand that and appreciate your input Helmut Marko...

In my case i was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best either. As opposed to you (and let's face it, opinions are what makes the world go around ?) i couldn't give two farks whether i am faster or slower than the competition as long as i'm out there having fun. I have enough problems engineering my head to fit inside my helmet without having to worry about shaving pubic hairs off brake discs to increase the performance by 3% whilst subsequently reducing effective lifespan of said component by 300%. If someone else wants to do that then they are more than welcome to knock themselves out.

I have no problems sleeping at night, and neither do my crew who know we're all out there to have fun and turn some laps - if we improve our PB each time we're at the track we're winning at life. So far we've done that at every outing, and we have yet to resort to gearbox breaking / disc shredding / gastric banding antics. As a result there's usually enough left over in the kitty to celebrate with a few cold ones on Sunday arvo without eating bread / cat food for the next few weeks...

If more people had the same approach then maybe (just maybe) we wouldn't be asking the very question which started this whole thread - Motorsport, are we doing it wrong ?

Admiral Ackbar
racer
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:39 pm
Location:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Admiral Ackbar » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:08 am

You must have changed a bit since you spent $70k on your RX-7. Good for you.

User avatar
Gridfilla
one foot in the grave
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:47 pm
Location:
Location: Narellan, NSW

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Gridfilla » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:09 pm

Despite all the pages and opinions I think the whole topic is summed up in one line ....

Not that it is wrong - rather it is the reason that 'controls' fail and budgets spiral and cannot be extinguished.

Frankly Paul there simply isn't enough "fun" there for me in just competing, in order for me to put in a full effort I need more "fun" than that. :wink:

There you have it.

There is 'fun' and there is 'compete' ..... They can co exist but it is a never going to be a smooth marriage :lol:

Cheers :mrgreen:
Newbies at the back move the old tail enders to mid pack !!

User avatar
FatBoy
I spend too much time in front of a keyboard
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:17 pm
Location:
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by FatBoy » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:28 pm

Admiral Ackbar wrote:You must have changed a bit since you spent $70k on your RX-7. Good for you.
I sure have. I've realised that Roland Dane is never going to pick me to partner J-Dub, and that these days with my budget it's more about having fun than "needing" to win.

Cheers

User avatar
3sgem
forum freak
Posts: 1298
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:11 pm
Location: Southern Highlands
Location: Southern Highlands

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by 3sgem » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:28 pm

FatBoy wrote:
TwinTurbo wrote:In my case, because I was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best.

Frankly Paul there simply isn't enough "fun" there for me in just competing, in order for me to put in a full effort I need more "fun" than that. :wink:
Totally understand that and appreciate your input Helmut Marko...

In my case i was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best either. As opposed to you (and let's face it, opinions are what makes the world go around ?) i couldn't give two farks whether i am faster or slower than the competition as long as i'm out there having fun.
For me IP is the best class around bar none. Sure its not perfect but I doubt that there ever has or ever will be a perfect catergory.

As I'm now gathering bits for my next IP car I can say that in the 40 years (yikes 8) of being involved in motorsport I've never been in a position to have a race car that had everything needed to be a winner. In the over 300 races I've competed in I've had 3 wins. Not a great ratio but it doesn't worry me. When I compete I do set myself goals, its what motivates me. I couldn't just get in a car just to do laps because more laps in a car is not what I need.

My next car, which we'll build, will be the same formula that I've always used. A tidy car with good bits that will run in the top 10 of its catergory at a State round. I will not buy the best bits when something else will do the job just as well but without a brand name. For most of us grid fillers, we have limited budgets and limited talent. But I've never let that not allow me to enjoy motorsport, either in or out of the car. I cant controll the fact that other competitors have more dollars and a shinier whatsamerjigger than I've got, I just get out there and try my best. Its the fun factor on and off the track, although some days I wonder where the fun went when something goes wrong.

So come on people, dust those cars off and come out and have a run, it will put a smile back on your dial!
Paul,

...I've never been perfect... but neither have you!!!

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4622
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Steve thomas » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:51 pm

3sgem wrote:
FatBoy wrote:
TwinTurbo wrote:In my case, because I was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best.

Frankly Paul there simply isn't enough "fun" there for me in just competing, in order for me to put in a full effort I need more "fun" than that. :wink:
Totally understand that and appreciate your input Helmut Marko...

In my case i was never the best driver, not the worst, but definitely not the best either. As opposed to you (and let's face it, opinions are what makes the world go around ?) i couldn't give two farks whether i am faster or slower than the competition as long as i'm out there having fun.
For me IP is the best class around bar none. Sure its not perfect but I doubt that there ever has or ever will be a perfect catergory.

As I'm now gathering bits for my next IP car I can say that in the 40 years (yikes 8) of being involved in motorsport I've never been in a position to have a race car that had everything needed to be a winner. In the over 300 races I've competed in I've had 3 wins. Not a great ratio but it doesn't worry me. When I compete I do set myself goals, its what motivates me. I couldn't just get in a car just to do laps because more laps in a car is not what I need.

My next car, which we'll build, will be the same formula that I've always used. A tidy car with good bits that will run in the top 10 of its catergory at a State round. I will not buy the best bits when something else will do the job just as well but without a brand name. For most of us grid fillers, we have limited budgets and limited talent. But I've never let that not allow me to enjoy motorsport, either in or out of the car. I cant controll the fact that other competitors have more dollars and a shinier whatsamerjigger than I've got, I just get out there and try my best. Its the fun factor on and off the track, although some days I wonder where the fun went when something goes wrong.

So come on people, dust those cars off and come out and have a run, it will put a smile back on your dial!
Very good post, I am looking to run a few rounds this season in WA on a very small budget, Just want fun and care not about points or wins.
Back to the Past for the Future.

User avatar
Notso Swift
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 6452
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:32 pm
Location: Melbourne
Location: Melbourne

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Notso Swift » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:46 pm

Agree
You can buy your self a pretty spectacular trophy of the cost of a tyre, but you can buy the memory of dicing for 5 laps with your mates and getting him on the last lap
Ironically, anyone winning easily can't buy that memory either
Contrary to popular opinion, I do have mechanical sympathy, I always feel sorry for the cars I drive.

User avatar
TwinTurbo
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 10481
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:46 am
Location: Sydney
Location: Sydney, IPRANSW

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by TwinTurbo » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:23 pm

Notso Swift wrote:Agree
You can buy your self a pretty spectacular trophy of the cost of a tyre, but you can buy the memory of dicing for 5 laps with your mates and getting him on the last lap
Ironically, anyone winning easily can't buy that memory either
Nope, they have to watch the lap record setting lap recorded on their go pro :lol: :lol: :lol:


Cheers
Gary

cortina mk1
one foot in the grave
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 8:46 am
Location: South Australia
Location: South Australia

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by cortina mk1 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:38 pm

I wonder if the people running around out in front by MILES are having as much fun as people back in the pack having great dices lap after lap. I for one remember having some great FUN back in the pack swapping places lap after lap and talking to the other drivers after with big smiles all round and looking forward to doing it all again. When it stops becoming FUN people stop racing !!!

pete-rx7
old timer
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Sydney, NSW

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by pete-rx7 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:56 pm

cortina mk1 wrote:I wonder if the people running around out in front by MILES are having as much fun as people back in the pack having great dices lap after lap. I for one remember having some great FUN back in the pack swapping places lap after lap and talking to the other drivers after with big smiles all round and looking forward to doing it all again. When it stops becoming FUN people stop racing !!!
Nothing gets you out of the car with a massive grin on your face like going door to door with other cars.
Pete Ingram
NSW #32 Rx7

User avatar
mtpanorama
I spend too much time in front of a keyboard
Posts: 2524
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:02 pm
Location: Bathurst
Location: Bathurst
Contact:

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by mtpanorama » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:02 pm

cortina mk1 wrote:I wonder if the people running around out in front by MILES are having as much fun as people back in the pack having great dices lap after lap. I for one remember having some great FUN back in the pack swapping places lap after lap and talking to the other drivers after with big smiles all round and looking forward to doing it all again. When it stops becoming FUN people stop racing !!!
I remember an ex IP champion coming back to race in a slower car and saying it was the most fun he had ever had in a racecar. No pressure to win to try and clinch a championship, just go out and have fun.
Shane Fowler Rx7 53
-------------------------------------------------
For all your signage needs, Shane's Signs 0422 418 725

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4622
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Steve thomas » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:04 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWPodVG5Pjs That had to be more fun than lapping by yourself out front.
Back to the Past for the Future.

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4622
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Steve thomas » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:15 pm

This is whats wrong with IP, Theres not enough room for everyone at PI. This did not inc all the cars being worked on at the time.
Attachments
PI Nats.jpg
Back to the Past for the Future.

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4622
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: Motorsport - are we doing it wrong?

Post by Steve thomas » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:08 am

Back to the Past for the Future.

Post Reply