Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

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Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by pirate31 » Thu May 04, 2017 6:33 pm

No one else did so i have started a new topic.
So many have an opinion. I think we should have a vote on it, call it a Plebecite or a Referendum :roll:
Current or recent NSW competitors only.
I vote Combined, and get tough with the promoters. Negotiate a better deal e.g a 4th race. We have the better product to promote.
That would look a lot more appealing to a potential new member. The recent combined touring events at WP and SMSP are a great example.
And if one day we have 60 entrants you can bet the promoters will separate us rather than lose all those entry fees !!!!!
Footie #31 unders/overs.

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu May 04, 2017 6:48 pm

MirageCupCar12 wrote:Spectators grow sports, let's not say they're not important. Imagine if through sponsorship our whole category (Overs & Unders) grew to where we have companies who personally want to back teams and drivers... it then doesn't hit our families back pockets as hard or potentially at all. Means more guys can race because they can afford to (if we head in this direction) and not skip rounds. Imagine potentially getting backed to race in ipra, and thinking back to when "we all had to pay for everything."
Ben Wright
The sponsorship of IP almost always come about from personal contact, other than Yokohama, who supply the control tyre, there isn't a national sponsor, they are all state based. In almost 30 years I can count on the fingers of one hand the sponsors of individual competitors, cars or drivers, that aren't the person's own business, friends, relatives or business associates. IP is an amateur category, State based that relies on over 90% for the competitors to finance their own racing. From painful past experience, I can say with absolute certainty that if an IP competitor somehow miraculously landed a sponsor that they would be approached by the professional categories marketing departments before the next race meeting. It's happened to us with Production Cars many times, cultivate a new sponsor that hasn't been involved in motorsport before and any number of V8Supercar teams commission based marketers will be on the phone faster than an Mumbai Telemarketer. They will send around their star driver, some well-known FoxSports commentator and couple of grid girls to smooze their way in and pinch your hard earned sponsor right out from under you. It doesn't matter to them how small it is, they'll sell a blinker sized space on the car or an armpit patch on a driver's suit.

For anyone wanting to progress up the motorsport ladder IP racing is about as far away from being a step as there is. Categories on the National program, almost definitely V8Supercars, is the avenue. Or jump on a plain and go Formula racing in Europe, better still do it early teens in karts.


Cheers
Gary
Last edited by TwinTurbo on Thu May 04, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu May 04, 2017 7:04 pm

I'm not even sure that I have to write anything, everyone knows my opinion. There is an absolute plethora of data that proves combined griods = a loss in U2L competitors. Just look at the other States that run combined grids. SA doesn't have any U2L cars, Vic often has 1 or 2, Tas and WA are similar. Why do you think Dave Walden comes down from Qld to race in U2L, hint, separate grids. As a result we wouldn't get 60 competitors, we would be down to 25 or so total within 12 months, with a handfull of U2L cars left.

As Mark said ;
Sprintparts wrote:Each category has their own allotted time for racing, IPRA is 2 categories, Under and Overs, so combined grid means only time allocated for a single category and them another category takes our spot, like Pulsars, Excels, Alfa etc, and we will never get 2 slots again.
The promotors won't want to get rid of another category to make the space. That's what we were warned about 2 years ago at the State Motorsport Panel briefings and why we had such a concerted effort to build the fields up again.


Mark's other point is also valid;
Large combined field grids with time certain races like at SMSP, will take a lot longer to grid up, meaning lost time and lost laps of racing. You could take an extra 2-3 minutes to grid a 35 car field over a 15 car field meaning 1-2 laps of racing could be lost
Even if we somehow managed by miracle a full grid it would simply mean many less laps of actual racing over the weekend for the same cost. I'm not sure who wins out of that scenario. Most certainly not the competitors.

There are a number of other categories queuing up to pinch our spots in the State Championship, as a result we have no muscle with the promotors. Especially now with previous National program categoroies relegated by CAMS to State level eg; Formula Ford.


Cheers
Gary
Last edited by TwinTurbo on Thu May 04, 2017 9:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by zossy1 » Thu May 04, 2017 8:33 pm

I fully agree with Gary on this one. Separate grids all the way.

(Soon-to-be NSW O2L competitor Chris White, ex-MX5 Cup/Prodsports/Supersprint)

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by Born Again Racer » Fri May 05, 2017 12:28 am

BP18T wrote:Gary laying down the facts.
Apart from the inaccuracies he is right.
When did Wade put a snail on his 86?

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by Andy San » Fri May 05, 2017 11:10 am

Not to mention Sandy, and a new competitor Steve who will be out next round... but let's not let the truth get in the way of facts
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by pirate31 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:19 pm

Hey hey you south africans are hijacking my thread !!!!!

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by excom cup » Fri May 05, 2017 3:26 pm

I'm an overs guy and a rep of BT, we like the split grids ( double exposure) and gives the overs group something to aspire to.
I'll start another thread with a suggestion on a combined race.
Cheers Dave
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by mikrace » Fri May 05, 2017 3:47 pm

The u2L supporters in NSW have definitely earned their own races from a numbers and entertainment perspective. It is great racing and most likely better value (lap speed per dollar) than o2L. If the rules were smarter and the 12a would be allowed (not a skinny 11.3a) into u2L, i would run my rx7 in there and still be midfield, maybe further back! I would be around similarly powered engines with similar corner speed. So i get the appeal of a separate u2L race, and see how it is successful.

If i was greedy, I would want an u2500 (2550cc with the 2%) class, so the current u2L could be a bit more torquey with some extra cc's, all the rotaries (non-turbo of course) and the <1500cc turbo cars can all have a class. Might even get the newer common 1.4L turbo cars (like VW Polo) interested....

But, Is the need for a separate u2L field the same as it was in the mid 90's Club Car days? Over-subscribed fields are nowhere near an issue in NSW. The difference in lap time and straight line speed is not anywhere near as big as it used to be. The fast u2L cars are no different in lap time or straight-line speed (often faster) than the once dominant rx7's. I hear many, even the NSW u2L purists, say the rx7 is still good enough for outright victory. So what is the issue nowadays?

The bigger the fields, the closer the racing and the more diverse IP is on race day, the better it is for the category, IMO. I think IP NSW will benefit from combined grids and will assist in more IP cars, maybe less u2L cars but more o2L cars due to the larger speed difference across the field which will enable IP in NSW to be seen as less daunting. NSW IP is hard to join as a newbie without having a fast car and many practice laps. Many will say "that is racing" and dismiss my point, but it has been said that future IP competitors will come from Sprints and the like. No-one in Super Sprints do testing and they definitely do not build their cars to any specific class rules like IP cars are.

I understand the risk of a reduction in laps (in timed races like we have in NSW) if we have more cars in the field. But this is inevitable if we want to grow, so that point is not valid unless IP NSW wants to not grow and have small fields with more laps. I can't believe that point was raised, and then supported, earlier in this thread....

My "vote" is for combined grids. It won't be a fast fix for IP in NSW.I do believe it will, in general terms, add to the appeal of the class for both competitors in NSW, Interstate visitors and spectators.
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by mikrace » Fri May 05, 2017 3:53 pm

excom cup wrote:I'm an overs guy and a rep of BT, we like the split grids ( double exposure) and gives the overs group something to aspire to.
I'll start another thread with a suggestion on a combined race.
What is BT?

Your mean our door sponsor??
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by TwinTurbo » Fri May 05, 2017 5:51 pm

Apologies to all, I looked at the Clipsal results and saw zero SA U2L cars. Which I did find rather disappointing. Moving on, I don't believe that it affects the conclusions that can be drawn from having combined grids in NSW. Combining the grids would simply result in a similar outcome, a drastic reduction in U2L cars. There is plenty of evidence to support that, from 20 years of accumulated history to what happened a year ago when we were forced (by the promoter) to run combined heats. The statistics tell us that within 12 months we would be down to a handful of U2L cars.

If we are seeking to resolve a the problem with O2L then that's exactly what we should do, implement a solution designed to fix precisely that. Not risk ruining U2L with a solution that actually does nothing to address the real problem. Someone mentioned a "bumper" Production Touring field last weekend, where the stats tell a story, 34 cars, 11 x turbo cars, 13 x V8's, 4 x U2L and 7 x 6 cylinders. It's not very hard to work out where IP is strong (U2L cars) and missing out (turbo cars). That's the real problem that needs fixing, not a solution like combined grids that has been well and truly proven not to work.

Cheers
Gary

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by pete-rx7 » Fri May 05, 2017 6:44 pm

improving the O2L fields, what will that increase the grids to? Realistically? 20-25 cars?

Based on that, I think what Footie is saying, even if we could achieve that 20-25 cars in O2L, he would personally still prefer a field of 45-50 cars combined than 25 cars per each O2L and U2L.

Footie, if you feel strongly enough about all of this, then the only way to make something happen is to raise it at a meeting. It's all well and good for us to discuss it on this forum, but in fairness to the committee, they won't make a decision based on things such as forums and Facebook that can be so fickle.

Re: loss of 2 minutes/time due to additional gridding up time. It's a matter of quality versus quantity. I'd rather 1 lap of awesome racing than 10 laps of time attack...

It is a hard call. Lose some of the competitors that we already have (U2L) to hopefully gain more in the long run? Maybe more of us should just build U2L cars if that's where the fun is like Jeff keeps telling me. Hasn't offered his car up yet though so I don't believe him!
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by mikrace » Fri May 05, 2017 7:51 pm

pete-rx7 wrote: It is a hard call. Lose some of the competitors that we already have (U2L) to hopefully gain more in the long run? Maybe more of us should just build U2L cars if that's where the fun is like Jeff keeps telling me. Hasn't offered his car up yet though so I don't believe him!
LOL, well played Pete. Well played indeed... :D
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by Sprintparts » Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

I think that instead of asking the question if there is a need/want to combine the grids, why is it that only 4 x Over 2 Litre competitors have competed at the first 3 rounds in 2017?

Mark

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by TwinTurbo » Fri May 05, 2017 9:10 pm

pete-rx7 wrote:improving the O2L fields, what will that increase the grids to? Realistically? 20-25 cars?
With the same discriminatory regs that we have now 20 is doable, 25 is a bit optimistic. However, update the regs to something alf way reasonable and there is no reason why 30 to 35 isn't doable. We just lose out on so many potential competitors, FHS if we just retained the 25 plus that tried and gave up we would bumper fields. That's what CAMS is on about, they want IP to fit nicely between Production Cars and Sports Sedans and attract our fair share of competitors. Which they believe we aren't doing right now, we are turning / have turned more away than are currently racing. Plainly if we won't do it they will do it for us and we have 3 months. CAMS seems very happy to have separate U2L races, so let's stop talking about combined grids and get on with fixing the real problem.


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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by excom cup » Fri May 05, 2017 9:36 pm

yes Mic, from BT advice.
Cheers Dave
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by mikrace » Fri May 05, 2017 10:14 pm

excom cup wrote:yes Mic, from BT advice.
Ok cool. Great to have a sponsor input into this :)
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by Electro » Tue May 09, 2017 2:41 pm

TwinTurbo wrote: Why do you think Dave Walden comes down from Qld to race in U2L, hint, separate grids. As a result we wouldn't get 60 competitors, we would be down to 25 or so total within 12 months, with a handfull of U2L cars left.



Cheers
Gary
There were 2 reasons to come down. 1. Under 2lt seperate grids. 2. Lack of racing up here.

Now there are other reason's - 1. Very well organised events. 2. Track facilities. 3. IPRANSW do go out of their way to provide.

Might do the whole season next year.
Last edited by Electro on Tue May 09, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by Gridfilla » Tue May 09, 2017 3:24 pm

Electro wrote:
TwinTurbo wrote: Why do you think Dave Walden comes down from Qld to race in U2L, hint, separate grids. As a result we wouldn't get 60 competitors, we would be down to 25 or so total within 12 months, with a handfull of U2L cars left.



Cheers
Gary
There were 2 reasons to come down. 1. Under 2lt seperate grids. 2. Lack of racing up here.

Now there are other reason's - 1. Very well organised events. 2. Track facilities. 3. IPRANSW do go out of there way to provide.

Might do the whole season next year.
Great to have you here Dave =D>

There is a reason why we have so few 0-1600 cars in Under 2 litre ........
The same will occur to under 2 litre if grids are combined again.

Let's put all this 'combined' energy into getting more over 2 litre cars to the grid - better result all round!!

Cheers :mrgreen:
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Re: Separate or Combined Grids in NSW ...

Post by TwinTurbo » Tue May 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Electro wrote:
TwinTurbo wrote: Why do you think Dave Walden comes down from Qld to race in U2L, hint, separate grids. As a result we wouldn't get 60 competitors, we would be down to 25 or so total within 12 months, with a handfull of U2L cars left.
There were 2 reasons to come down. 1. Under 2lt seperate grids. 2. Lack of racing up here.
Now there are other reason's - 1. Very well organised events. 2. Track facilities. 3. IPRANSW do go out of their way to provide.
Might do the whole season next year.
Thanks Dave, always glad to have another competitor =D> =D> =D>
We are thinking of some payback, maybe coming up for the last round at Morgan Park, is it confirmed yet?

Cheers
Gary

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