IPRA Poll

A place to chat about the state of the IPRA nation, ask (non-technical) questions about IPRA, etc.
Public Read and Write

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Gridfilla
one foot in the grave
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:47 pm
Location:
Location: Narellan, NSW

IPRA Poll

Post by Gridfilla » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:45 pm

I see on facebook that an IPRA poll may be circulating regarding engine blocks. I didn't get the email so it begs the question of how many actually did? Anyone else miss out or is it selective polling? Would be nice to have a say!
Cheers.
Newbies at the back move the old tail enders to mid pack !!

User avatar
mikrace
forum freak
Posts: 1410
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:09 pm
Location: Queanbeyan

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by mikrace » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm

I have not received the email, but I don't think i have renewed my membership yet this year...

I have seen the email though. Definitely an important one for all IPRA members to vote on.

My question is: Will the results of the survey directly affect the outcome or will it only influence the same people/committees that have messed up all the previous attempts to clear this issue out?
Last edited by mikrace on Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Michael Hazelton
0404 051 926
TwinTurbo wrote:posting on here about it will achieve exactly nothing.

pete-rx7
old timer
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Sydney, NSW

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by pete-rx7 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:24 pm

I also didn’t get the email, but also haven’t renewed my membership.

As would be expected, Facebook is going nuts 🤦‍♂️
Pete Ingram
NSW #32 Rx7

User avatar
cammck
pit crew
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:08 am
Location: Essendon Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by cammck » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:28 pm

mikrace wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm
I have not received the email, but I don't think i have renewed my membership yet this year...

I have seen the email though. Definitely an important one for all IPRA members to vote on.

My question is: Will the of the survey directly affect the outcome or will it only influence the same people/committees that have messed up all the previous attempts to clear this issue out?
Common Mick, get that membership paid up :))

In fairness to IPRA AUS, I think they would/should only email current members.

Cheers all,

Cam
Cam McKinnon
IPRA VIC Member IP0512
Datsun 1600 (EM) - Falcon EB (LM)
Ph 0403 303 633

www.888capital.com.au

Born Again Racer
one foot in the grave
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:01 pm
Location: Wimmera Vic
Location: Wimmera Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Born Again Racer » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:49 pm

What is the block in a rotary?

User avatar
mikrace
forum freak
Posts: 1410
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:09 pm
Location: Queanbeyan

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by mikrace » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:43 pm

Born Again Racer wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:49 pm
What is the block in a rotary?
I believe...
> End/Centre plate = block
> Housing = head
Michael Hazelton
0404 051 926
TwinTurbo wrote:posting on here about it will achieve exactly nothing.

Born Again Racer
one foot in the grave
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:01 pm
Location: Wimmera Vic
Location: Wimmera Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Born Again Racer » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:47 pm

In a flat top engine, combustion takes place in the block so that would mean that the rotor housing where the piston is is the block. And in a factory engine or Bridgeport the fuel and mixture passes into the combustion chamber through the front rear and centre plates similar to a head on a piston engine

speaksgeek
pit crew
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:13 pm
Location: Melbourne VIC

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by speaksgeek » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:52 pm

Gridfilla wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:45 pm
Anyone else miss out or is it selective polling? Would be nice to have a say!
Why would anyone except paid up members get a vote? Or do you think it should be a public poll and everyone's grandmother should get in on it?

User avatar
cammck
pit crew
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:08 am
Location: Essendon Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by cammck » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:00 pm

Is this the calm before the storm..... when are the big guns coming out to play :)
Cam McKinnon
IPRA VIC Member IP0512
Datsun 1600 (EM) - Falcon EB (LM)
Ph 0403 303 633

www.888capital.com.au

User avatar
cammck
pit crew
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:08 am
Location: Essendon Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by cammck » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:02 pm

cammck wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:00 pm
Is this the calm before the storm..... when are the big guns coming out to play :)
Cam goes to find earplugs now
Cam McKinnon
IPRA VIC Member IP0512
Datsun 1600 (EM) - Falcon EB (LM)
Ph 0403 303 633

www.888capital.com.au

User avatar
Andy San
old timer
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:03 pm
Location: Adelaide Hills
Location: Adelaide Hills

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Andy San » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:34 am

Let's save everyone about 5 pages of reading and start arguing about restrictors now...
Andy.

Electro
old timer
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:12 am
Location:

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Electro » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:39 am

mikrace wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm

My question is: Will the results of the survey directly affect the outcome or will it only influence the same people/committees that have messed up all the previous attempts to clear this issue out?
Come on Mike, everybody follows the Constitution now -

6.4 Delegates are expected to act for and on behalf of and represent the views of the members of their State or
Territory Association.

User avatar
TwinTurbo
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 10767
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:46 am
Location: Sydney
Location: Sydney, IPRANSW

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by TwinTurbo » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:16 am

I apologise in advance if you have heard this before, but it has been going on since 2008 when I wrote the first opinion on it as an EO.
1. The current 3J regulations do not permit aftermarket blocks.
2. The 6010Boss302 is not an “aftermarket” block, it’s cast by Ford, it’s machined by Ford, it is sold by Ford and it is covered by a Ford patent.
3. A sample 6010Boss302 block was examined by an approved CAMS engine sealer, one of the Supercar technical officers. His written report was submitted to CAMS in which he confirms that the 6010Boss302 measures identical to the homologation papers for the Boss302 block for the 1980's Fox Body Mustang which is Group A homologated.
4. The recent CAMS Technical Committee review had all of the data available to them and they concluded that the 6010Boss302 complied with the 3J regulations.
5. There are a lot of repercussions should this result in a wording change to the regs to outlaw engine blocks even though they comply as per above. For example if the vehicle is allowed into IP because of it being sold here and manufactured in, say, Thailand then we would not be allowed to use a bock manufactured in, say, Japan. Even if the block is manufactured by the same automobile company.
6. Any such change in the regulations would require competitors to prove where their block was manufactured.
7. This is why the current regulations allow for blocks “derived from”, that way we don’t get involved in minuscule measurements and demanding paperwork to prove origin.

The current 3J Regulations;
4.2 BLOCK
(a) The block must have the same number of cylinders/rotors and the same configuration as was standard or available as a manufacturer’s option for that particular model (e.g. in line, horizontally opposed).

(b) The block must be from the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford, GMH, and Nissan) as the original Automobile.

(c) The cylinder block must either be:
(i) derived from an eligible Automobile as detailed in Article 1.1; or
(ii) derived from the same family of engines as an eligible Automobile using identical internal dimensions (with differences only in transmission mounting pattern, minor external casting differences etc.). The block type must be clearly identifiable, i.e. Nissan SR20DE, SR20DET, Holden Family II, Toyota 4AG series etc. The derived block must be identifiable as being from a mass produced Automobile, not exclusively developed for sporting evolution models produced for homologation purposes in small numbers for competition use only. Motorsport Australia will be the final arbiter in determining the eligibility of a block.

(d) Motorsport Australia reserves the right to add any engine block at its discretion.


Cheers
Gary Cook
IPRANSW Eligibility Officer
Last edited by TwinTurbo on Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4677
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Steve thomas » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:28 am

Motorsport blocks can cut huge expense from a build, That said they are only available to very limited makes so have no place in IP.
I think this is a knee jerk reaction by those that can't except that the current Boss 302 block is an eligible Ford replacement block.
Don't get me wrong, I'm building a very serious LS right now and would love to use an LS Next block but I don't believe thats fair or reasonable.
Aftermarket non OEM Blocks would need a rev limit or let IP go Sportsedan rules and allow all to change engines upto 6.0L. Is that still IP?
Back to the Past for the Future.

User avatar
Steve thomas
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 4677
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Perth WA
Location: Perth WA

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Steve thomas » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:31 am

TwinTurbo wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:16 am
I apologise in advance if you have heard this before, but it has been going on since 2008 when I wrote the first opinion on it as an EO.
1. The current 3J regulations do not permit aftermarket blocks.
2. The 6010Boss302 is not an “aftermarket” block, it’s cast by Ford, it’s machined by Ford, it is sold by Ford and it is covered by a Ford patent.
3. A sample 6010Boss302 block was examined by an approved CAMS engine sealer, one of the Supercar technical officers. His written report was submitted to CAMS in which he confirms that the 6010Boss302 measures identical to the homologation papers for the Boss302 block for the 1980's Fox Body Mustang which is Group A homologated.
4. The recent CAMS Technical Committee review had all of the data available to them and they concluded that the 6010Boss302 complied with the 3J regulations.
5. There are a lot of repercussions should this result in a wording change to the regs to outlaw engine blocks even though they comply as per above. For example if the vehicle is allowed into IP because of it being sold here and manufactured in, say, Thailand then we would not be allowed to use a bock manufactured in, say, Japan. Even if the block is manufactured by the same automobile company.
6. Any such change in the regulations would require competitors to prove where their block was manufactured.
7. This is why the current regulations allow for blocks “derived from”, that way we don’t get involved in minuscule measurements and demanding paperwork to prove origin.

The current 3J Regulations;
4.2 BLOCK
(a) The block must have the same number of cylinders/rotors and the same configuration as was standard or available as a manufacturer’s option for that particular model (e.g. in line, horizontally opposed).

(b) The block must be from the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford, GMH, and Nissan) as the original Automobile.

(c) The cylinder block must either be:
(i) derived from an eligible Automobile as detailed in Article 1.1; or
(ii) derived from the same family of engines as an eligible Automobile using identical internal dimensions (with differences only in transmission mounting pattern, minor external casting differences etc.). The block type must be clearly identifiable, i.e. Nissan SR20DE, SR20DET, Holden Family II, Toyota 4AG series etc. The derived block must be identifiable as being from a mass produced Automobile, not exclusively developed for sporting evolution models produced for homologation purposes in small numbers for competition use only. Motorsport Australia will be the final arbiter in determining the eligibility of a block.

(d) Motorsport Australia reserves the right to add any engine block at its discretion.


Cheers
Gary Cook
IPRANSW Eligibility Officer
Funny no one ever complained about the N1 etc blocks in GTRs, Just as eligible as Boss302.
Back to the Past for the Future.

Born Again Racer
one foot in the grave
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:01 pm
Location: Wimmera Vic
Location: Wimmera Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Born Again Racer » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:58 am

Gary, can you please clarify for me. Which part of my motor is the block and which part is the head?

Born Again Racer
one foot in the grave
Posts: 685
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:01 pm
Location: Wimmera Vic
Location: Wimmera Vic

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Born Again Racer » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:59 am

Gary, can you please clarify for me. Which part of my motor is the block and which part is the head?

User avatar
TwinTurbo
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 10767
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:46 am
Location: Sydney
Location: Sydney, IPRANSW

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by TwinTurbo » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:34 am

It's irrelevant Bruce, there are particular regs that relate to rotary engines that limit their external components, with the result that housings and end/intermediate plates are treated equally;

1.9 ROTARY ENGINE
Engines with rotary (rather than reciprocating) motion of the compressing medium (Wankel-type). A rotary engine is defined as the rotor housings, intermediate and end plates.
4.3 ROTARY ENGINES
(b) The rotor housings, intermediate and end plates shall be identifiable as mass produced Mazda items. Only engines identified as 10A, 12A or 13B are permitted. Such engines must not be exclusively from evolution/racing models.


Cheers
Gary

User avatar
TwinTurbo
You've got to be kidding, how many posts?
Posts: 10767
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:46 am
Location: Sydney
Location: Sydney, IPRANSW

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by TwinTurbo » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:46 am

I thought I should emphasise that this is a POLL it is NOT A VOTE in that it has no implications in regards to regulations changes. For the IP regulations to be changed the actually wording of the suggested revised regulation has to be provided and discussed before a vote can be taken. Which is subsequently communicated via the Delegates
Cheers
Gary Cook
IPRANSW Sporting Committee Chair
ipransw.org.au

Electro
old timer
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:12 am
Location:

Re: IPRA Poll

Post by Electro » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:01 pm

TwinTurbo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:46 am
I thought I should emphasise that this is a POLL it is NOT A VOTE in that it has no implications in regards to regulations changes. For the IP regulations to be changed the actually wording of the suggested revised regulation has to be provided and discussed before a vote can be taken. Which is subsequently communicated via the Delegates
It is basically a 'vote'. The members must get what the majority of members want. No 1, 2, or 3 people are god. The revised regulation's, if any, is just a matter of process and formality after the poll has been decided.

Post Reply