E85 Fuel

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bjracer
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E85 Fuel

Post by bjracer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:34 pm

Just wondered if anyone is racing using E85 Fuel as yet and if they are how is the performance and also fuel consumption when comparing with with an unleaded pump fuel ?? Thinking of using this fuel for next round at Oran Park and need to do some testing ready for the Nationals :D

Any help would be appreciated :wink:
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Tone3SGE
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Tone3SGE » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:53 pm

I dont use it yet but will be switching to this fuel next year. My limited research has told me that you should expecta 20-30% increase in fuel consumption and your ecu will have to be re-programmed to suit this fuel or you will risk detonating your engine to death. There is a much larger oxygen content in this fuel and some turbo guys I have spoken to have made impressive horsepower gains even compared to Avgas. Hope thats some help. Cheers, Tone.
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by datman55 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:01 pm

I am also in the process of swapping over. Just swapped the injectors to a larger set, now to get the car retuned.

Some of the things I have heard.........

1. Need to run 20-25% extra fuel. (Check injector duty cycle on your current injectors)
2. Engine can take more timing?
3. Some engines run cooler engine temps?
4. Power & Torque increases in most cars - Turbo & NA
5. Good for restricted turbo engines.
6. Costs less than race fuel =D>
7. Can dry out valve stem seals? (some people running 2 stroke or castor oil in the fuel to lubricate)

This is just some things I have heard, feel free to correct or add to the list people.
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Steve thomas
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Steve thomas » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:06 pm

Almost every Race car I look after is on E85. A very small mix of 2 stroke is a good idea.

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Celica RA45 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:16 pm

i tried it bob over the 100 pump fuel and gained 1.2 kws and about 3 though the mid range ,have gone back to the 100 pump fuel as i use a extra 35% over the 100 octane
e85 is $1.00 and the 100 pump fuel is $1.40
its better for turboes as they can get more power

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by mtpanorama » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:28 pm

bjracer wrote:Just wondered if anyone is racing using E85 Fuel as yet and if they are how is the performance and also fuel consumption when comparing with with an unleaded pump fuel ?? Thinking of using this fuel for next round at Oran Park and need to do some testing ready for the Nationals :D

Any help would be appreciated :wink:
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by bjracer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:57 pm

Thanks guys this gives me something to go on :) , looks lke I will give it a try at Oran Park and see how it performs and also what the consumption is like ready for Philip Island :!:
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Steve thomas » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:16 pm

Honda engines have been one of engines that love E85.

Pitcrew r us

Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Pitcrew r us » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:05 pm

Guys
As advised some time ago make sure your fuel system will take the E85, fuel lines Etc.
Someone may care to elaborate who has had more experience with this fuel.
Cheers
Pitcrew

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by jim111 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:12 pm

i have used the e85 all year changed from avgas
you may need biger injectors bigger fuel pumps
and it uses 30% more e85 had some dramas at the start with the pumps not
being big enough but the hp and torque are well worth the change i am not going to say
how much we gaied but it was a shitload more than 3kw

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by jim111 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:14 pm

i forgot to say never had to change fuel lines or ao had any trouble with
the fuel system

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Uncle Dave » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:48 pm

Pitcrew r us wrote:Guys
As advised some time ago make sure your fuel system will take the E85, fuel lines Etc.
Someone may care to elaborate who has had more experience with this fuel.
Cheers
Pitcrew
Honda engine will require a fuel pump upgrade and 550cc injectors as a min for E85 we use Injector Dynamic 1000cc units in our 2lt B series Honda engine and make 160+kw.Our car has been running E85 for the last 18months with no problems what so ever best power gains with it are at part throttle.
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by NewGuy » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:46 am

jim111 wrote:i have used the e85 all year changed from avgas
you may need biger injectors bigger fuel pumps
and it uses 30% more e85 had some dramas at the start with the pumps not
being big enough but the hp and torque are well worth the change i am not going to say
how much we gaied but it was a shitload more than 3kw

jim gellan
What car is that in Turbo/ NA?
How many cyl?
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by jim111 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:40 am

4cyl na cosworth scott willings old car the black escort

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:47 am

Pitcrew r us wrote:Guys
As advised some time ago make sure your fuel system will take the E85, fuel lines Etc.
Someone may care to elaborate who has had more experience with this fuel.
Cheers
Pitcrew
My 20 cents after running E85 for 3 years;
Some of the old rubber fuel hoses don't like ethanol.
I haven't found a fuel pump yet that has a problem with ethanol.
I only ever use steel case fuel filters, so I don't know if the plastic ones have problems with ethanol.
Petrol leaves crap in the tank, pump and lines, ethanol dissolves that crap. So I change the fuel filters frequently and cut them open to see when the crap stops, then I go back to normal maintenance timing.
Ethanol is hygroscopic, like brake fluid, so I don't leave containers with the lids off. For the same reason I only store ethanol in air tight sealed containers.
I finish a race meeting with as close to an empty tank as I can arrange, that way I don't have stale ethanol in the tank for the next race meeting.
The 15% petrol means that it's not necessary to totally drain the fuel system after every race meeting, like we do with 100% methanol.
Make sure your tuner has lots of ethanol or methanol experience, it will save you time and money avoiding someone learning on your car.


Cheers
Gary

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Notso Swift » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:05 am

Uncle Dave wrote:
Pitcrew r us wrote:Guys
As advised some time ago make sure your fuel system will take the E85, fuel lines Etc.
Someone may care to elaborate who has had more experience with this fuel.
Cheers
Pitcrew
Honda engine will require a fuel pump upgrade and 550cc injectors as a min for E85 we use Injector Dynamic 1000cc units in our 2lt B series Honda engine and make 160+kw.Our car has been running E85 for the last 18months with no problems what so ever best power gains with it are at part throttle.
How come such large injectors?
I use 550 ccc RX7 Turbo ones and make more than that, fuel pressure is up a bit (70 base) but duty is way down and Lambda is on the rich side I cant see (being turbo) 1000cc injectors being required for anything less than 500 hp@crank
Also don't you have issues with low/part throttle, If I were running on 1000cc I would be tempted to run 8 injector hi/lo, especially since the TB's are available for about 1500USD
Just asking
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TwinTurbo
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:54 am

Notso Swift wrote:
Uncle Dave wrote:
Pitcrew r us wrote:Guys
As advised some time ago make sure your fuel system will take the E85, fuel lines Etc.
Someone may care to elaborate who has had more experience with this fuel.
Cheers
Pitcrew
Honda engine will require a fuel pump upgrade and 550cc injectors as a min for E85 we use Injector Dynamic 1000cc units in our 2lt B series Honda engine and make 160+kw.Our car has been running E85 for the last 18months with no problems what so ever best power gains with it are at part throttle.
How come such large injectors?
I use 550 ccc RX7 Turbo ones and make more than that, fuel pressure is up a bit (70 base) but duty is way down and Lambda is on the rich side I cant see (being turbo) 1000cc injectors being required for anything less than 500 hp@crank
Also don't you have issues with low/part throttle, If I were running on 1000cc I would be tempted to run 8 injector hi/lo, especially since the TB's are available for about 1500USD
Just asking
RPM, 300 bhp at 6,000 rpm is different to 300 bhp at 9,000 rpm.

Cheers
Gary

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Notso Swift
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by Notso Swift » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:46 am

Not for the amount of fuel you require (and being turbo we cool everything withthe fuel as well)
And I have short enough duty to actuually help in higher revs
(and BTW mine is 7500)
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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by TwinTurbo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:48 pm

Notso Swift wrote:Not for the amount of fuel you require (and being turbo we cool everything withthe fuel as well)
And I have short enough duty to actuually help in higher revs
(and BTW mine is 7500)
The 6,000 rpm versus 9,000 rpm was only an example, 50% shorter etc so simpler maths on my tired brain. I suppose I could always use 7,500 rpm and 10,000 rpm, that's easy maths too, 33.33333% shorter. :idea:

Think about how much time you have to inject the required amount of fuel, injector duration versus inlet valve position and injector timing. A larger injector gives you more flexibility in exactly when you time the injection. Plus ethanol is very easily turned to vapour, so the timing of injection is even more critical than petrol which doesn’t vaporise as readily. Then add in a lot of camshaft overlap and lots of compression, which you need to get 300 bhp out of an N/A 2L engine.

In simple terms if you want the same flexibility in injector timing at 10,000 rpm as you have at 7,500 rpm then you need injectors 33.33333% larger, faster is probably a better description. Hence 550 cc’s is replaced by almost 750 cc’s. So 1000 cc’s is a little bit of an overkill, but they cost the same, in fact 1000 ccc’s are a lot more readily available and cheaper than 750 cc’s. Plus a larger/faster injector gives you more flexibility in where in the inlet tract you place the injectors in relation to their timing. So why not take advantage of the extra flexibility they give you? It’s not like the ECU can’t control them, the extra flow is only there if you need it.


Cheers
Gary

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Re: E85 Fuel

Post by echoman » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:57 pm

how does e85 affect full cell foam?

brad

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